me:
A few days ago I asked for your feelings about the use of accents thus:
May I ask a favour? As you may or may not have noticed, since this feast of very personal wine news and views was launched in 2000, we have tried, though doubtless have not always managed, to maintain a certain standard of grammar, spelling, punctuation – all the sort of stuff that the English teacher instilled in me at Carlisle & County High School for Girls.
This has so far included doing my very best to deliver correct accents in languages other than English. Thus Châteaux, Côtes, Spätlese, Viña and so on. But inserting these is A Complete Pain and represents one of the most serious brakes on my output of material for you. Furthermore, a new content management system currently being designed to allow me to spew forth even more easily offers no easy solution either.
How important are accents to you? And how many of you anyway find that our accents look strange on your screens? (This was the reason given by my colleagues at www.decanter.com apparently when asked why they don't bother to include accents.) I would really, really appreciate feedback on this one if you have a moment.
You have been wonderfully responsive and I thought you might like to see the first tranche of replies to get an idea of the majority feeling on this issue, as well, incidentally, as some flavour of the community to which you belong. The replies have continued to flow in, even long since I took down my plea for feedback, with if anything even more practical suggestions. The balance of opinion remains much the same but I have learnt a great deal.
Some people have argued that omitting accents would be the thin edge of the wedge: once we abandon accents then decent grammer, spelling and punctuation will go by the board. I can assure you that is not at all what I am suggesting. I also like to read perfect prose and would not dream of letting standards slip in any other way. I am simply presenting you with the choice in terms of my time: accents or more words without accents.
Many correspondents have suggested various easy ways of inserting accents, ranging from using the numerical key pad to acquiring other keyboards (French Canadian is the latest recommendation). This won't really work, I fear, for I write a considerable proportion of my input when travelling with my notebook.
I did notice that quite a number of those most insistent on accents and grammatical perfection did not adhere to these principles in their own prose, but I have to admit that it will be a big leap for me if I do decide to abandon accents. I'm not at all sure I could bear to write Mourvedre, Chateau and manana.
And I do take the point that accents interfere with the site-wide search function available to purple pagers. Oh dear...
The first few replies appear below unedited in the reverse order in which they were received (first reply at the bottom). All I have done is remove the names and addresses.
N- denotes a reply saying No to accents
Y- denotes a reply in favour of using accents
P- denotes a reply giving practical advice
?- marks equivocal replies
Thank you all very much. Jancis
you:
N-I don't care about the accents. I come to the site a lot, read you in the FT whenever I can get a hold of a copy and am not a Purple Pages Person. You may quote me though why you'd want to escapes me.
N-We dön't nèéd àccênts! Your meaning is clear without them.
N-accents are not important to me at all.
N- Whatever it is that you intend to say, you say clearly and well. It is the thinking that I value. The lack of accent/punctuation marks is of little consequence to me personally, but it is comprehensible that some readers may be card-carrying members of "L'Acadamie" and would throw up a whoop. On the other hand, if they do get exercised over it...tell 'em to get a life and/or take it up with Bill Gates. Best regards to All.
PS. I am still finding the every-so-often bottle of an '86 or '90 or other rifle shots where something special happened in a down year. These goodies can still be had at significant discounts from the 00 offerings. A '93 Las Cases that came out of the bottle the other night was a wonder...and not only because of that vintage's less-than-stellar reputation: I still have 5 more of the darlings that I got for under 30 pounds each recently. They may still deserve a few more years' cellar-time before I pop the next cork, but they are something to look forward to, that's for sure.
N-for me, dont worry about the accents etc, although I would love a site that shows the correct pronunciation of some of the french chateaux's and regions as my French teacher never told me that I would good pronunciation many years later.
N-Really don't mind if accent is included or not.
Y- I find very important to be much precise when writing about wines, grapes and wine regions. We are not talking about computers and we are not adolescents to write slang or any abbreviation when registering a fact for history.
"IMHO"
Y- I've been drinking wine longer than I've been a professional writer, and leaving things out, just for the convenience of the producer, leaves an unpleasant taste in the mouth.
P- Re: accents – I'm always happy to see them used appropriately, but of course it's a nice-to-have, not a must-have. If you use Microsoft Windows, you might consider switching to the US-International keyboard layout; it makes typing accents etc. somewhat easier. This keyboard layout is described here:
http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/reference/keyboards.aspx
Of course, this is easier if you have a US and not a UK keyboard as the keys won't match very well.
Anyhow, the most important is of course criticism, not diacritics.
Cheers,
N- accents really not necessary! any one interested in wine knows......! Spelling has never been my strong point,....I just wonder how many of us actually would MISS the accents
N-In relation to your query regarding accents, while they do not show up "strange" on my screen, they are not important to me and I would suggest you dispense with them if it makes life easier. I would prefer not to be quoted in your report (or, at least, not to be attributed).
Many thanks for all the great information – keep up the good work.
Kind regards,
P-If you'd like to stick with them, you can easily assign shortcut buttons to accented letters using microsoft word.
N-Regarding your request for information on accents. While I agree with the principle of including accents out of respect for the language of origin, I think that it is an issue where practicality outweighs the effort when limited to Roman alphabet keyboard and would not be offended by their ommission (Indeed I wonder how many native English speakers would notice). The exception would be in places where they differentiate between two potentially confusing words; but cannot think of any examples of such! That said if you were asking with regard to printed article I would prefer to see them, it is just that the web is rather less formal.
Many thanks for the informative site
N-I am not a purple page member, alas, but so what? If I may simply answer the questions on your home page (letter of 8 March 2004) directly:
1. The right accent?
I think that in our "internet" age, it is perfectly acceptable to drop accents, Jancis, and much else. The informality, and relative anonymity, of the internet, is a blessing, in my opinion. The potential dangers of the internet, however, should not be underestimated (eg. identity theft, deception, abusive emails, viruses etc.)
2. May I ask a favour?
On occasion, although there is no guarantee I will answer it.
3. How important are accents to you?
Accents are generally irrelevant to me. They are good to know, of course, but so what? They are generally designed to clarify pronunciation rather than meaning. Meaning is more important to me.
3. And how many of you anyway find that our accents look strange on your screens?
They occasionally look curious on my screen, but it depends what software I am running at the time. I generally ignore odd accents. As long as I can read the text, that is quite sufficient.
I rarely mind being quoted, Jancis, unless someone is trying to stitch me up. Thank you for taking the trouble to write so informatively, Jancis.
N-Re accents – I appreciate how time consuming this can be from compiling tasting sheets and customer's wine lists. I don't think it would denegrate the site in any way so long as the meaning is 100% clear.My English-and- Latin-teaching wife might have other ideas though!
Y-I think accents are very useful for 2 reasons: it leads the reader to the right pronunciation and, if you think of your site as a mass communication media, it helps to spread the words the right way. Without accents, Moët could easily turn to Moe.
Y-I àm wrîting from España üsing án internaçionàl keyboard, where accents are as easy to type as any letter. Are they not available in England? Accents etc make sense in the countries that use them and as you point out in your "where to find me" section, much can be lost in poor translation. On balance, I'd prefer to see them included.
N-I suspect most PPers will be sufficiently knowledgeable to be able to safely ignore the absence of accents. I know that I have seen several times an odd looking word on the site where an accent has "not taken", I have just looked for an example but cannot find one, though I'm sure I remember one in the last 10 days or so [probably 'Spa<umlaut>tlese' in last Saturday's 2003 article which I subsequently changed]. It could be that it only shows on my home PC, and not my Work PC (which I am using at the moment).
Suggestion: how are you with sound files? Perhaps you could build up a lbrary of correct pronunciation, the include a hyperlink on unusual words. I know I never knew how to pronounce a lot of wine related names until I took the Vinopolis tour a few years ago and listened to you & Charles Metcalfe (?) on the accompanying portable device.
I have no objection to this missive being quoted by yourself.
N-Doesnt bother me personally, the real balance is between style and information, if you're limited for time. Your site is quite up market, which would tend to suggest use of accents would be appropriate; but then again you dont come across as a traditionalist.
Perhaps the simplest route is to find out whether your subscribers are all from the Truss – "Eats, shoots and leaves" school. God I hope not!
?- the best site
bravoooooooooooo!
Y-With regards to your query on accents, I wanted to let you know that I do find them important. It is enjoyable to read from a website (or newspaper article) that has not been "dumbed down". Where will it stop? Should we no longer have capital letters for country names, cities, etc... How about the correct use of i or me??
I do not mean to rant, as your website has very worthwhile and refreshing content.
Good luck in your decision!
N-Forget about the accents Jancis but do, oh do, ensure you continue to set the standard about grammar, spelling and clear, concise writing. How many times have I seen Reisling written in reputable wine journals?
?- Regarding accents... I find it a nice touch to use and respect accents in words in languages other than English as far as possible. Not fundamental, but a nice touch indeed.
Best regards.
N-As the ignorant American might say, "Accent? Schmackcent."
N-I really wouldn't bother trying to put accents in. I can't think of any wine words which would be incomprehensible without them!
Feel free to quote me if you want to.
Keep up the good work!
Y-In response to your request for feedback on whether or not to employ accents on foreign language-derived words:
At the risk of causing you further chagrin, I would strongly prefer to see the correct accents on non-English words. If we collectively cease to write such words with their full complement of accents, how will current and future students of the wine world ever know precisely how to spell, and pronounce, them? I am a lover of language, and appreciate the written word far, far more if it is correctly spelled – which, as far as I am concerned, includes accents. I find it very frustrating to see a foreign word written a certain way in one book, for example, and to see it written differently in another (or even in the same book!). I'm afraid to say that even the WSET publication is guilty of this (Intermediate certificate).
That said, I do appreciate the time consuming nature of including accents when using a standard English-language computer keyboard; perhaps someone reading this website can offer a solution to facilitate accent inclusion? I myself would be interested to hear of any potential solutions.
N- For my money, leave the accents off. It's a real pain struggling with word processors to find and include the correct accents. To me a chateau is a chateau with or without the accent. In any case, we're British, damn it! Long live the Empire.
Y- Well, for me it's very important the different language accents. I wanna know that Viña is with an 'ñ', not Vina, and Gewürztraminner is with "umlaut", or Château has to be written this way... just to be pronounced as it has to be pronounced... Maybe I'm too hard with the grammar... but that's the way I was taught...
Thanks and regards,
N- With respect to accents, if omitting the accent does not change the meaning of the word then by all means leave them out. As a resident of Chile, I can't think of a single case were the fault of an accent would led to confusion. As such I would prefer increased output to a correctly placed accent egue.
Y-I like to see good grammar, spelling, punctuation.........and accents. Can you not have a database of common accented words which could be cut and pasted?
Y- My honest, humble opinion on accents: I urge strongly that they be kept in your commentaries and other musings, Jancis. I am sure it is a PAIN to do but authenticity is hard to come by and always at a price. Part of the reason why we love you is your down-to-earth, authentic, no-nonsense style. Not like the "noise" out there....I would rather sacrifice "speed" than to give up authenticity, which really is rare and precious, especially in today's instantaneous, Blackberry world. very sincerely, doris
N-Accents are not important to me on this website. It matters more to me in hardcopy reference material.
P-yes the accents are important and if you had a Macintosh computer you would find it very easy to spell words correctly including accents. Also, you would be incompatible with most virii. Furthermore it would generate good karma and that can't be bad can it?
N-Accents! Delighted to learn that you're a real Northerner! Many happy memories of Cumberland (as I still think of it) and my first encounter with alcohol – cider as a teenager at a Scout camp there.
At Manchester Grammar School, we were taught punctiliously to use the appropriate marks in French and German. Nowadays, though, does it REALLY matter? We (ie, the English-speakers – at whom your website is presumably aimed) can understand the references to, eg, Urzig or Spatlese or Vina without those "funny" foreign accent marks. Don't want to sound like a "superior" English prig, but if practicality wins over laboriousness in updating your site and we can all understand what you're saying, don't we all win?
Please feel free to use these comments in any way you wish.
And thanks for a wonderfully informative website.
Y-I like the accents for foreign language words. Some time ago I spilled a bit of coffee on my Mac keyboard and it apparently shorted out my Option key so I can no longer use Key Caps, the Mac method to add diacritical marks. And it's killing me.
But I do agree that it can seem a timewaster.
N-I would have no problem with accents in foreign words being eliminated if it would make things easier. When I send emails to France in French, I try to get the important accents right, but even then I can't always, and it is time-consuming. When I send English emails with French words (generally wine names), I generally omit the accents, since I assume the recipient understands, and it saves a lot of time.
P- As a retailer I face the same dilemma: should I make the description of the wine correct, or easy. My personal preference is to make it correct and easy so I use macros (pre-recorded keystrokes you can easily replay).
This what happens when I press Alt+C …….. Château
et voilà
Best wishes
William Roach
william@putnamwine.com
P.S. The trouble with making it easy where do you stop. “sem/chard” and “cab sav” are in common currency and are pretty unambiguous but I can’t like them unless easy-going familiarity is one of the qualities I want to express. However, if you use accents then searching requires accents also: for example, in your Burgundy tasting notes “romanee” returns no matches while “romanée” works a treat.
N- YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT ABOUT THE ACCENTS. AS FAR AS MY SCREEN IS CONCERNED, ANY ACCENTED LETTER APPEARS AS A ?. DO AWAY WITH THEM!
N- Regarding accents,etc., your information and writing is honestly of such quality that I'm not going to notice an accent one way or another.
Just keep up the great work; that's all we could ever ask!
N-Jancis, ban them all. I am against accents even in portuguese! They are here just to annoy, obsolete, anachronical. And an inutile extra stress on our tired fingers at digitation.
P-1. I think they matter – but not that much.
2. If you never see them it's so easy to forget whether there should be an accent or not – coteaux without, côte with, etc.
3. Accents are less of a pain if you can learn to use the keyboard directly:
ALT+0224 = à
ALT+0225 = á
ALT+0226 = ã
ALT+0227 = â
ALT+0228 = ä and so on. If you open the Windows Character Map and click on a character it will show the keystroke value in the bottom right hand corner
N- The "accents" are not important to me at all. My vote would be to proceed, "expeditiously", without the "accents"!
?-As one philosopher to another: It depends, and it is problematic. That is the "trade" answer.
For most established wines and areas it doesn't matter much, since we know how to spell and pronounce. However, for less well known areas and wines it does matter: the accents and umlauts tell us how to write and pronounce these names. The information from the strange-looking symbols is not superflous in these instances.
I hope this clarifies it? However, that is unlikely since I'm a professor of philosophy.
N-Accents don't matter a bit. You've got quite an international crowd (and a sophisticated lot of wine drinkers as well), and I think the vast majority of us will recognize a spatlese whether it carries its umlaut or not.
Of course, we Americans don't recognize any letters other than those in our alphabet in any case, so for us, the absence of those strange characters is likely to solve more problems than it creates. :)
Best Regards.
N- Makes no difference whether accents are used or not!
N- I'll cope without french accents-thanks
N-It happens that I am in Japan and am using a Japanese windows to view your pages and accents do present problems. I have to change the encoding everytime they appear to get a 'proper' display. Anyway, accents are important to me, though if you trade off speed with it, I'd rather have more of your writings than the language purist dignity. Your articles really help me appreciating wine more and of course as a bonus they are invaluable to those punishing diploma exams as well.
N-The accents, circonflexes,umlauts, etc , are not important. The content, your elegant stlye, and criticisms are.
It's a pity that influential American writers are not able to express themselves as eloquently as you do. Please discard the accents, and strive to never use terms such as "in your face", "locked and loaded", or "talk the talk."
I really must become a subscriber.
N-Jancis – don't bother with the accents and so on – their absence doesn't detract anything from the material.
Action: Submit
P-I prefer accents, but they aren't critical. Do you write offline? If so try TextPad – very easy to accent that way!
BTW: Any chance of reinstating the 'last updated' flag on your home page that I found so helpful on your old version?
[The short answer is that the site updated practically every day.]
N-I absolutely do not need to see accents, except on the rare (perhaps non existent) occassions when it is necessary for meaning.
Y- Accents – please keep them if you can. The standard of grammar and linguistic accuracy in published material is appalling, in general. I cant help but feel that cutting corners is only leading us further down the wrong path. Furthermore, many of the worst crimes against the English language are perpetrated by Americans. You have many American readers and they desperately need education in foreign pronunciation and accents. So please just spend the little extra time necessary and keep the accents, for all your readers' sakes. Thank you.
N- Feel free to drop the accents etc.
N- Regarding accents – You write beautifully with clear attention to detail. I'm sure we will forgive you if dropping the accents makes life easier. Best wishes.